Canon crushed many dreams today with the EOS-R. My Suggestion? Wait a few months…

54 Comments

1. Great article, thanks for the review! I have an Olympus EM1 and I am very happy with it!

2. Feature crippling to protect your own product segmentation does lead to customer base erosion and can lead to problems later. Your customers start looking elsewhere for the feature sets they really want. Eventually, some upstart company comes up with a quality product line and your customers start leaving in droves and you now have to catch up.

   Using myself as an example: I had a Canon 1D2N in 2008 and was looking for a 5D form factor camera with better AF. 5D2 was announced in late 2008 and Canon stayed with the 9 point AF from 5D instead with the AF from the EOS 3. I decided to try the Nikon D700 and like it a lot. Eventually, I sold all my Canon gear and bought a D4 (and kept the D700) for my kids’ sporting events and assorted glass. I just acquired a new-to-me the Sony A7R3 because Nikon Z7 was not quite the mature product as the Sony line. I love the A7R3 so much that I am now looking at selling all my Nikon gear because I am now on the the Zeiss Loxia lenses.

   The point is not that Nikon is better than Canon or Sony is better than Nikon. Rather, companies who try trap their customer base end up losing them to someone else. Canon/Nikon now have a problem because Sony is outselling everyone else in the FF bodies. Sure, the larger mirrorless mounts for Canikon may prove to be an advantage some years down the line. However, they have to spend the resources to play catch up to the market leader at the time.

   (1st post – long time reader!)

3. Manufacturers hold back innovations, rather than pack everything they have in the current model. They release them step-by-step as incentive to buy new models. But customers nowadays are aware. If manufacturers overdo, they loose.

   In the long run, with the prevailing progress in integrated circuits and software, mirrorless will become cheaper to make with simpler mechanics. There are additional benefits: AF sensors all over the image sensor area and right at focal plane, bright EVF (and for image review), shorter flange focal distance.

   However, fast internal AF, high image quality and pancake shape is not not possible in the same lens. Even lenses with short or medium focal length for mirrorless are not dramatically compacter than those for SLR. For the time being, at least this side from the Sony A9, flipping mirrors economize on electronic processing power und make cameras faster. Even if you shop brand new, DSLR bodies and lenses are so much cheaper and plentiful to choose from.

4. Will you be reviewing the Fuji Xt 3? X trans 4 sensor.
   $1499.95 body only or $1899.95 with an XF 18-55mm kit lens.

   26MP BSI ‘X-Trans CMOS 4’ sensor
   425-point hybrid AF system
   Improved AF Tracking and Face/Eye Detection AF
   20 fps shooting with AF (11 fps with mechanical shutter)
   30 fps shooting in 1.25x crop ‘Sports Finder’ mode
   3.69M-dot electronic viewfinder
   Two-axis tilting touchscreen
   10 bit 4:2:0 H.265 internal video capture (4:2:2 over HDMI)
   UHD/DCI 4K/60p from 1.18x crop region
   UHD/DCI 4K/30p using full width of sensor
   Internal F-Log capture (HLG coming by end of 2018)
   Dual UHS-II SD card slots
   USB C-type connector can be used for charging battery
   Headphone and Mic Sockets
   This looks to be a competitive offering in the ramped up camera wars.

5. I think it’s good to own your choices with camera equipment. I’m not into the fanboy bashing of other brands and I think competition can only benefit the user in the end. As an amateur using Sony 7 series and 3 primes, I was anticipating serious hype with the release of these Canikon cameras. The “perfect” camera as Steve was hoping for. I am not sure if I feel disappointed that the bar has not been raised or relieved that my investment in Sony didn’t just plummet.

   There is n way I could afford to switch to a different system. A year ago, I sat down and, in an academic sense, researched if I would be better of using Fuji for my needs. I decided that, even if I did not own any equipment I was better whete I was.

   I still think I am happy with what I have and continue to see what investments are worthwhile with the system I am in.

6. Sony have a BIG problem in the long term.

   Both Canon and Nikon have gone for a larger mount than Sony.

   This is why Canon have been able to come up with the 28-70 F2 and Nikon are getting stoked about the 0.95 Noct Nikkor.

   Fast forward a few years from now, both Canon and Nikon will have much more flexibility over new lens designs and the ability to put fast glass to market much more easily than Sony, who are stuck with a smaller mount.

   When Canon and Nikon move to “pro” level mirrorless, this could make a HUGE difference as they will find it much easier to make really interesting, very fast glass. The only solution for Sony would be to ditch the mount and go larger. And I do not think Sony are willing to do that for a while…

   • You have a point there!

     • Well, 0.95 lenses for Sony E and EF mount already exist. Mitakon 50mm f:0.95 is being sold with a Sony mount and Leitz 50mm 0.95 can be used with an adapter. A wider mount makes it easier, to be impossible you need a lot smaller mount as the 39mm old Leica mount. Sony mount is 46mm wide, wider than the Leica M and the classical Nikon mount.

   • I don’t agree. Leica’s mount is narrow and yet we have a 50/0.95. That’s an aperture size of 52.6mm. There is another lens, maybe it’s the Mitakon, which is a T0.95, which has a larger aperture again. Don’t forget the ELCAN 90/1, which has an aperture of 90mm.

   • This is in the mind of the marketeers and fanboys only. Want a manual focus 50mm f/0.95 for Sony? Hey buy the few that are literally already available. Sony already had a patent for a 28-70mm f/2 GM last year for E-Mount.

     When Nikon talk about how great their mount is, they aren’t comparing to the competition. They are comparing to the F mount, which is true. But all these mirrorless mount share the same benefits.

     Likewise, did you notice that despite the mounts being larger diameter (Canon’s is longer, Nikon’s shorter), there has been ZERO benefit in the size of the lenses. Isn’t that another of the big claims with the supposedly ‘too small’ mount of Sony E, that the lenses then have to be bigger? Yet the Canon and Nikon designs are both looking super similar.

   • As the last guy who replied, Sony has the 0.95 Mitakon which is manual focus. Nikon new 58 0.95 is also manual focus, I dont see any advantage of the larger mount if its already possible on a smaller mount. I think its just marketing.

   • I hear that a lot but also wonder what lens that we feel missing in the Sony lineup that the larger mount would help? For me, f1.4 is fast enough

     • I believe for most 1.4 is plenty fast enough. When you get to the f/0.95 and f1.2 it really is for a niche segment of the market. While I LOVE fast glass, it is not necessary for 99% of us.

7. The only shortcoming I see in the Nikon is that it doesn’t focus older lenses.
   They should make a ML reflex like body with the old mount, ibis.
   It would go better with older and bigger lenses.
   Also, Nikon lower battery life?
   I heard the opposite.

   • CIPA rating is lower.

8. New Canon R is like Canon 6d Mark 2 without mirror but with very good EVF and a Sensor from 5d Mark 4 ( I hope this time dimanic range will be very good too ! ) . First I wanted to buy it ( I’m still using my 6d ) but now I think I will wait … , maybe 1 Year until the price falls down ?
   In Germany Canon R with Adapter costs 2499 € ( Nikon Z6 + Adapter 2449 € ) . 6d Mark 2 is in my opinion very good choice for less money( it costs with Canon Cashback 1500-1550 € )

9. Love the review Steve, but crushing dreams seems a tad too strong, its only a camera.

   • Lol, I AGREE! They did not crush MY dreams but read this, as they crushed the dreams of MANY Canon fans: https://www.eoshd.com/2018/09/dishonest-misleading-unnecessary-eos-r-and-cropped-4k/

     That is what motivated me to make the title ; ) Again, not MY dreams as I do not think it is awful, just crippled for the video crowd and missing a few things some photo people wanted. Many were expecting more.

     • Don’t take any notice of the train wreck that is EOSHD. Andrew Reid in particular is a clown and there is a good reason he doesn’t write for DOReview any longer.

       Just remember how you felt with your 6D Steve, after reading all those horrible reviews focussing on all the wrong things, or the commentary from people (like Andrew) who have never touched it. The EOS R looks like a superb camera in that way. Smaller than the 6D with a great EVF and a better sensor, processor and features. Now with much more advanced video (including Log and 4K, but also 10bit out and much better codec options) and keep in mind this is only $300 more than the 6D II launched at… its actually pretty nice.

       Yes all day long we can point at some ‘spec’ on other models, but we know that’s not what makes them good. It’s about the feel and the results. This has apparently really nice build and ergonomics. It has the proven 5D IV sensor (GREAT all rounder) with great Canon colour (even better in Digic 8 with way better OOC JPEGs). Plus we know this has great AF in any light and a nice range of interesting lenses, plus all those great EF lenses (and then M mount etc, on a Canon with Canon colour in FF… yummy!).

       There are some great cameras coming out at the moment, but this by far has me the most excited. Canon did something special when creating their mirrorless system in that they haven’t just created a ‘mirrorless DSLR replacement system’.

       This coming from someone who has been extremely critical of Canon over the years.

       • First, thank you to Steve for the mention in the post. I think we are of the same opinion. Having an opinion on the internet is always going to attract people who disagree with us, some get nasty – like Matt above who I had to ban from the EOSHD Forum last week for trolling.

         I am critical because I really love the Canon image and just want movies to look the same as the stills. Nobody puts down $3000 on a groundbreaking full frame lens, only to use it as a $3000 APS-C lens or 1.8x crop lens. It ruins the look. It shortchanges the customer. It falls short of the competition and it loses Canon a ton of goodwill from their own most loyal early-adopters, like me – who would have bought the EOS R in a heartbeat if it was anywhere near the Sony or Nikon full frame cameras in 4K. It’s also a very cynical strategy to purposefully hold stuff back for later models, in a way tricking people to dive in with the hyped first release before regretting it 6 months or a year later!

         In the end I just want to make use of that wonderful 28-70mm F2.0 and 50mm F1.2 in 4K… Is that too much to ask, considering they are so expensive? I don’t think so!

         Keep up the good articles Steve. It’s always more useful to hear the unvarnished truth, even if it means trading popularity (and attracting trolls) for (deserved) credibility. Cheers! Andrew

         • Thanks Andrew. I agree with much of what you say. For video, this EOSR is a non starter for most who are serious about it. They created stunning new glass and then crippled the camera in 4K. I see some say “The crop doesn’t make a difference, look at M 4/3” but M 4/3 makes ultra wides specifically to make up for this crop, and it is where they started long ago before video was such a thing in these cameras. Now Panasonic is going full frame. Hmmmm. Also, many want that full frame look and Canon has a specific look with their video IMO (color and smoothness). These gorgeous new expensive lenses are now crippled due to the 4K crop. Makes no sense in a $2200+ camera. If stills are your thing, it looks nice but still lags behind in features compared to a Sony A7III. I think Canon will release an upgraded body in 6 months, higher spec. They have created the lenses for it, now they need a worthy body.

         • After using Sony for a year I really have es honestly admit that I miss Canon‘s colors. Why can’t a photo camera just be camera? There is no technological breakthrough but the images that come out of that will not look sharper but they will look better in terms of colors and whitebalance! Also the body seems to be on another level and the evf too! As a manual focus person this dual pixel assist seems really nice too? Also that Electronic programmable Aperture Ring that the shutter protects the Sensor when you switch lenses.

           There are a lot of opinions in the internetz, but this is probably a very good photo camera and if you truly want video, why not going to their cineline which is made for that?

10. COMPARE THE PAIR

    –

    EOS R = 660g

    RF 28-70MM F2L = 1430g

    RF 50MM F1.2L = 950g

    EF 24-70mm f2.8L II = 805g

    –

    E-M1 MK2 = 574 g

    FT 14-35mm F2.0 = 900g

    MFT 25mm f1.2 = 410g

    MFT 12-40mm f2.8 = 382 g

11. All of the cameras mentioned are certainly great and in the right hands will yield wonderful prints. Thanks to Steve as usual-the reviews are great, and the advice is sagacious.

    I wonder: Mount all of the cameras mentioned ( and many others ) on a tripod, and photograph the same scene. Edit to similar standards, and make an 8×12 print on the same paper from the files rendered by the cameras being compared. From the “normal viewing distance” will anyone here be able to tell which image came from which camera? I doubt it.

    If fast autofocus and giant prints are needed then of course some of the cameras would be preferable to others. Some will need the extra features when shooting weddings or sports events-or even following a baby.

    However, for most of one’s more prosaic photographic needs there is no need to die with the photographic envy that is created by the manufacturers and others.

    Just my two cents with absolutely NO criticism intended towards those who are inclined to spend the thousands of dollars necessary to buy new cameras and lenses. Best of luck with whatever choice you make.

    If one can

    • Yep. You are correct Elliot. Take all three cameras, take a shot, make a print..no one would know. These days though it is all about the features (for most). Me, I prefer simplicity (why I like Leica bodies, just wish they were not so expensive). Flip out screens for vloggers, eye AF for portrait pros, 20 FPS for sports pros, extended DR for landscape pros, lens choices…so many variables. They are all good, and to be honest I could be happy with any of them. It seems that some take these releases way too seriously, as if there are no other options out there.

    • Make a 4k video with the same cameras. Will anybody notice the 1,8 crop on the Canon? Or the 2,0 crop if using the digital stabilisation? Best available wideangle for filming would be 56 mm. Do you think somebody would notice compared to a 28mm on Sony?

      • Well, the difference lies in usability. Having such a large crop there are really now wide angle options. So if one is shooting in a tight space, well, you are out of luck. Micro 43 has q 2X crop but they have ultra wide lenses to make up for it (7-14 for example). Sure, one can buy a Canon 11-24 but at what cost? ($2699). So having such a crop on this camera when they have desired such gorgeous lenses for it makes no sense. It just cuts out wide angle use unless you buy an exotic lens. If I shot 4K I would never ever buy the EOSR to do so when I can buy a Sony A7III that uses the full sensor for 4K. The EOSR is good for photos and 1080HD and in all honesty the glass is what makes this system, so far. Without those nice lenses I feel it would have flopped. As is, I think it will sell well to Canon fans.

      • You will definitely notice crop during filming. Remember – EOS R is a hybrid camera. You get photo/ video in one package. However if You use (prime) 50mm lens and You want to film something in 4k Your lens “magically” becomes 50×1,8=90mm. You were shooting something and You want to make short movie and whoooops… You must carry and swap lenses to keep the same perspective (focal lenght) in 4k. Or go back in time to recording 1920×1080 video in days of 4k displays. Personally I dislike narrow DOF and I close the aperture down. Having focal lenght changing in 4k video mode is annoying. If someone uses camera as video camera only then he mounts EF-S (APS-C) lenses and he can not make use of Full Frame in photo mode. Swapping lenses means lost shot in many circumstances. I preffer to have two cameras instead of swapping lenses. Many wedding photographers work this way.

12. “and I predicted Sony’s success 5 years ago, when many were laughing at me! Look at them now, the all out leader in mirrorless cameras”

    Yep, just like the iPhone and the iPad – their success was easy to see. It’s not rocket science, people! Funny how some of the people who went to digital very early don’t like the fact that we have yet another revolution happening? And another one will happen after that.

    But there is something else that people don’t think about. Unlike American companies, companies in Japan collude and compete at the same time. Canon and Nikon reps would be negotiating who gets what. “You guys make the 58/0.95, we will make the 24-70/2.” Why do you think that the D90 and 5D MkII were released in the same year? Why do you think that their respective mirrorless systems were released within days of each other?

    I don’t know if Sony is also colluding, but they made it clear right from the A100, they wanted to be #1. They deserve it, IMHO. Canon and Nikon would be feeding us the same tripe year after year if it wasn’t for other companies like Sony, Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic. No company has a mandate on what features we should want.

    Leica of course is above and outside all of this, and is a brand like no other. Not all of their products are desirable, though. But that’s another conversation.

    • It was quite obvious that DSLRs are a hybrid transition technology, a real digital camera is a camera w/o any mechanical parts anymore. But, for a while, DSLRs were the best digital cameras you could get, if you needed speed and good image quality. Plus, in the first years, ML cameras had to many cons for skilled photographers: EVFs with bad resolution and with such a lag that EVFs really showed you the past, not the present, and made you a headache if you tried to pan. But it was clear that this will improve with faster image processing, and today ML is a mature technology. Kudos to Panasonic as THE ML pioneer a decade ago, and to Sony as the FF pioneer and putting pressure on slow Canon and Nikon. Now we are close to cameras with nice electronic shutters only, and that’s what I’d personally call a mature digital camera.

      That said, I expect for the more far future that digital cameras will look completely different, very small but very capable, no big lenses etc. anymore. The latter will survive in a special market for chemical film enthusiasts, like the Vinyl market.

13. The number 1 best feature of the EOS R is that that shutter closes when changing lenses to protect the sensor from dust.

    About time mirrorless cameras did that!

    • Doesnt that also ensure it isnt easy to clean, or can it be temporarily set not to do that? I guess we dont know yet

    • it’s also a way to damage the shutter when swapping lenses in a hurry in the middle of a wedding.

    • See that is a real improvement! Would love to have that on my Leica SL, and have often wondered why manufactores didn’t do that.

14. Have you handled either camera? Do you intend to do a review on either or both?

    • I will review all new cameras coming out this year after I use them for 2-3 weeks each. I will not be first with a review and they will be based on real world use as always, photo and video (since video is so big now). Thank you. Also, the new Fuji X-T3 is looking VERY nice as well. I’m not a huge Fuji guy personally but have to give it to them there, it looks great from the specs.

15. I just love how canon placed the shutter button in their eos R.. well that’s one good thing 🙂

16. Anyone with a Canon or Nikon professional DSLR is yawning. “Nothing to see here….move along”. And the size of those lenses is enormous. I don’t get the obsession with mirrorless when the lenses are so big. Compare those to the original mirrorless like the Leica M cameras with the 50 Summilux. They are half the size.

    • They are pretty big, that surprised me a bit as the current 50 1.2 is sort of compact in comparison to the new one. The new one though does look way more modern in the way it renders, so some will like that. Still, that 28-70 is pretty large (though still a nice looking lens)

17. No mention of weather proofing. Not that Canon would do it for EOS.

18. They are definitely protective of their products already in the market. Both Canon and Nikon desperately needed to get something out there, so both these systems may be transition or placeholders until they can catch up with the heavy guns. Then again, and like Adobe limiting what they give us in LR Classic CC so as to not render Photoshop CC irrelevant for photographers, it is theoretically possible that the intent of Canon/Nikon is to go easy maintaining the older DSLR style products in the market for longer that the consumer may want. Hard to say what the internal strategy is. I still believe that these are very good products, specially for new buyers. They do represent “the begining of the begining” in what may be a longer migration than what the consumer expected.

19. Wasn’t the whole idea behind mirrorless, that it would be much lighter? So now we are getting lighter bodies with enormous humongous lenses. Waiting to see what Pany brings us.

20. Hi, Thanks for the insight Steve. Always love your site and reviews etc. Good that C & N have new FF mirrorless cameras out and be interesting to see how these are taken up by the people and also what the next gen will be, dissapointing for some perhaps but there will always be those who will buy regardless. I will look forward to your full reviews. What Sony will do next will be interesting to see. You mentioned (I think) in a recent video that there could be a possibility of Olympus FF? That would certainly set the cat amongst the pidgeons so to speak.
    I`m looking forward to the next Oly M4/3 offering myself.
    Anyway hope you aren`t too tired after your late night.
    Andrew.

21. You miss here something in the equation Steve: the Leica SL 2!
    In less then 3 months we know more, I‘m sure!

22. …dear Santa: an A7SIII, an A9R or even an A7000 would be very much appreciated…many thanks you brought us Sony BTW

23. I don’t think Canon is protecting their better cameras I don’t think they have the tech! Dual-pixel seems amazing (never extensively used it) but the key to Sony’s 3rd gen cameras are sensor design and fabrication that Canon cannot match. Sony full-frame sensors scan faster. Period. Clearly Canon is coming close with the C700 but perhaps it requires extensive cooling or is too expensive to manufacture on Canon’s processes. As a Sony A9 shooter I’m impressed by the new Canon *system* in many regards but Canon’s sensor tech is still lagging.

    That said, I think Canon is going to clean up big time with this camera. It was never about being the best for Canon it was about being good enough.

24. “Crushed” and “crippled” are strong words. The Canon and Nikon are very complete cameras for most people. I don’t think Canon has ever made a camera with in body image stabilisation and that hasn’t stopped them being the world’s most successful camera manufacturer. The video crop will likely bother some people but, equally, be seen as a bonus by others (more effective reach).

    It’s hard to tell with Nikon, as their cameras seem to appeal to people who put more emphasis on numbers than other features but it would be a very safe bet that Canon will sell vast amounts of cameras and lenses in this system. I don’t use any of these brands (Leica, Olympus and Panasonic currently) but, if I wanted something like this and couldn’t afford a Leica SL (I can’t!), any of these would probably do. I actually don’t want something like this because of the disadvantages of large sensors but that could change one day.

    For me personally, the disappointment is that all three manufacturers are using the fake DSLR body style. Cameras like the PenF, XE3, A6000, X1D etc. show that throwing the mirror away can allow a more compact shape, with the bonus of a viewfinder well away from the screen. I guess it will happen in time!

    • Read the reactions..many out there ARE crushed! Not me as I really have no serious interest but many are. Just because they have not added IBIS in the past doesn’t mean they do not need to now, to compete. It does disappoint many and is a deal breaker for many as well. I agree on design and shape. Not sure why these are all so ugly ; )

      • Because they want to ween the DSLR owners off of the DSLR body and into the mirrorless fold.

      • I totally agree that IBIS is a very worthwhile thing to have. I’ve had several cameras with IBIS (starting with a big, beautiful Olympus E3) and very much appreciated it. Yet the Leica T I bought at the start of the year doesn’t have it and I haven’t missed it.

        Some people (I’ll include you Steve) can take a camera, look at the sum of the parts and then enjoy it based on feel/fun/results. Others get their nappies in a tangle over specs and numbers. I would be absolutely stunned if Canon didn’t sell vast numbers of their first offering in their new system – partly because you’ll pick it up and it will have that lovely Canon feel and partly because of the name on the front.

        If you think about it, the Hasselblad X1D is way down on specs compared to the Canon EOS R but it doesn’t stop it being one of the most desirable cameras money can buy…

25. Thanks Steve. Well written. I totally agree with you and I’m glad I choose for Sony 5 years back. I staying with the original. Please, keep up the good work!

26. Sony a9 still rule them all! 2 card slot, ibis, 20 fps no black out, almost no rolling shutter, silent shooting, 2 dial ontop, no crop video, e-shutter that goes up to 32,000, good color sience, great evf, amazing autofocus with eye af and 24mp which is just about right.
    In my opinion the best camera ever made mirrorless or dslr. And the camera announced on April 2017! Sony is years ahead of their competitors.

    • Mirrorless mirrorless on the wall which is the one to rule them all? The A9 for my needs for sure.

27. Now that we have seen whats underneath the Canikon Kilt, the A7 Mark III is looking even more spectacular. Thank you Canikon for helping promote full frame mirrorless. Sony should benefit nicely from your efforts 😉

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