Pre-Order the NEW Leica M OR NEW M-E!

82 Comments

1. I have been reading all the fiery comments here about Fuji / Leica / Panasonic et al.
   Don’t want to open a can or worms, but I think there is an economic/industrial aspect people are ignoring when they criticise Leica about getting sensors from company X or company Y in the land of he rising sun.

   The fact is it would never be possible for them to do it themselves in any case, under any conditions.

   Japanese industrial giants like Panasonic, which make everything from ovens, drills, recorders, radios, car parts, video cameras, bread bakers and cameras can afford to have their own chip manufacturing facilities as part of a major, worldwide corporation, present on all continents. Fuji also has many subsidiary companies and technologies they produce quietly behind the scenes of film and camera manufacture for third industrial parties. (Off topic: Seiko Watches do not make a lot of money with watches, but their chip developments, connections with Seiko Epson, etc. do make lots of cash).

   Add to this, the proprietary aspects of patents on much of the camera technology we are discussing, is all solidly in the hands of the Japanese, some Korean companies and a few Chinese. That’s it.

   Add it all up, and you will see that there will never be a (big), full fledged EU based company for these kinds of projects, because it is simply impossible – physically or economically – to do so, even with all the cash in the world.

   It is a fact of life that affects Leica, and many other small companies today.

   Times have changed, and all we can do is accept it; however hard we complain, it won’t change anything.

2. My Leicaflex SL died years ago, but I still have a bunch of R glass. I have been waiting several years for a R solution from Leica. So when I found out that the new M is Leica’s FF camera that can use R glass, I was curious, but the R solution looks like the old Leitz Visoflex, the external EVF is a deal killer.

   I will keep on waiting for a better R solution.

3. Would love some advice gents. My husband is finally letting me purchase a new Leica plus a 35 Summicron and after reading every Photokina article online, I am still undecided. I have been thinking of just buying a new M9-P, since I would not really use all the bells and whistles. I have used the M9 and enjoyed it, and pre-ordered the DLux 6 as a backup. I understand that the wait for the M will be extensive, and I do not find the M-E appealing at all. Love the color Grey, just not on the Leica…well the Steel Grey M9 is sexy. So I do not want to buy the M just because I can, I really would love to to buy a particular model because it fits me well. Cheers.

   • Use that money to go to Europe and Asia and see the great western and eastern works of art.The camera, any camera is just a “taking” tool you put between you and the subject. the minds eye is what takes the pics, the camera is just a machine. Instead of investing in yet another camera, why not invest in what really counts, your knowledge and vision?

     • I was born in N.Z, educated in Australia and lived in Rome for a time. I appreciate your suggestion in investing in my ‘mind’s eye’. But travel is all too familiar. I enjoy the beauty of California, where I now live. Clearly the market holds many nice camera’s, and a point & shoot is not what I view as an investment, nor as something that can replicate that ‘moment’ accurately as I wish. After more reading, I think I may just pickup the modest M9-P. Something that I will own for a long time as I experience different lenses over several years.

       • PS cameras have one big problem and that is Af speed. Then again manual focusing isnt much faster if any at all. Someday PS cameras AF will be faster, and their sesnors will be better and larger, negating a need for higher end cameras. As for an investment, with all due respect you are better to invest in something other than a camera. A camera is just a machine that does not give people many choices really, they point the camera, they press the shutter, it’s a matter of when and where the camera is used that differs. The camera is just a machine that “takes” photos, scientifically. It’s not blank canvas an artist uses to “make” something. there is a degre of control the photgrapher has, but like the earths resources it is finite. Someone once said that photo taking is like ” an instant drawing” and that’s all it is. That is all it can be, sad to say. It is the universe that makes the picture, makes the subject, makes the light, the only things the photographer can do is where and when to take the picture. The camera is basically a photocopier with a lens and the only difference seperating good from not so good and great is where and when you photocopy the image. It’s safe to say many cameras render the image indentically as they are all just the same picture taking devices, so many cameras will meet your essential needs…unless the Leica has a tiny sized artist inside it making the photo with a teeny tiny magic brush.

   • If you have tried a M9 and liked it then go for it. Using a Leica is a unique experience that some just don’t get. What you can afford and how you spend your money is your business, so don’t be put off. I hope you enjoy your Leica experience!

4. Panasonic Leica..that’s the only chance Leica has to surviving the next 30 years. Panasonic buys Leica and using their tech makes Leica Af lenses on FF or apsc cameras. Panasonic technology with Leica’s lens formulas. Darwins theory, that’s how it will be. Voigtlander is better than it ever was, thanks to Cosina. dont think of your pride Leica, think of your future.

   • You never know they have been working together for years, but now you’ve got me thinking, how about Fuji Leica? Leica have said some very complimentary things about Fuji products. It looks like a good product fit and you would see the innovation that you and others seek. Fuji sensors, autofocus, affordable lenses and a really wide product line up. Humm you know what they say, “every business is up for sale-for the right price”

     • They have been working together, but what i meant to say is that Panasonic has to take full control of the reins. The fuji x1pro is something Leica should have made with Panasonic, albiet in a different way.Leica just does not have what it takes to make digital equipment. what they need to see is that slowly cameras like the nex7 and fuji x’s are starting to control the 900-1500 dollar market…the pie gets smaller and smaller from there on and is monopolized by the likes of super cameras like the flagship canikons and their 2nd tier FF cameras.There’s not enough meat on the bone for 7 grand manual focus rangefinders, that market for Rangefinders dried up in the early 60’s,in business , the past is no good if it doesnt make you money.

       Leica could have made perhaps a 4 thousand dollar FF AF camera perhaps and a lower tier apsc Af camera like the Fuji xpro 1 at around 2 grand.Instead Leica went after a tiny niche market with their m9 and left the door wide open for the rest of the bunch…not a good idea as now that market is covered by the likes of Sony and Fuji and others.technically, Leica can ally with any big camera company but I dont know if it’s pride or it’s customers that is keeping them from doing it. I suggest to you the problem is not just Leica but it’s customers. There is a bling factor ppl associate with the Leica, and some believe in camera myths as well, something Leica willingly exploits year after year. After all, you can only blame the drug dealer so much but i’ts the addict that keep begging for more.As for buying Leica, no one wants to overpay, especially when ppl in the know, know that Zeiss lenses are just as good if not better at a better price point. Once you have used Zeiss, there is no need to go to Leica.
       Leicas were about innovation when they first came out, they were expensive, but what things hand built back in the 40’s, 50’s, wasn’t expensive? Today, Leica sees expensive as being better, so if their cameras cost more, their customers must think it must be better. Times have changed, expensive doesn’t necessarily mean better by alot all the time. We can make gold pens with the best ink but does that help a composer wrtie better music? Leica philosophy is what traps them. Their best attribute is also their worst.Leica needs to be more practical and realize that niche markets dont make you much money, ask Harley Davidson. If every company made only Leicaesque and Harleyesque stuuff, no one would be able to take a pic or ride a bike unless they were millionaires. LOL

       • Well you have just summed up the conundrum that all niche producers have with their businesses. It aint easy to go for the top end prices, keep customer loyalty, attract new customers, introduce new products and keep your doors open. That’s why a lot of small manufacturers get swallowed up by the corporates. Who knows what alliances may be forged in the future and which companies will fall, only time will tell. I like and own Zeiss glass as well as Leica but they are different both in draw and colour characteristics. That’s great! more choice, different price point and different artistic possibilities. You are of course correct, no one likes to pay over the odds, but what one man sees as affordable against what another man sees can be two very different things. Long live the differences that choices bring us.

5. Really nice. The next step for Leica, is autofocus. They are doing it already in med. format. It is time to say good bye to the M, I say this being an M7 user. Leica, for now, is too rich for my blood. It is a excellent M camera for all of thoses with deep pockets.
   Maybe the converter for the R lens means an autofocusing R ?

6. Leica dropped the ball.

   MILC FF built in EVF Leica $3k would been the primary FF for many
   the backup for many who shoot with M9, M-E.

   It would have been the approximate size of Fuji XE1.

   As it stands M is stepping on more than the toes of ME.
   (Nikon for instance understand their cameras should not step on one another).

7. There is NO AA Filter. This is CONFIRMED by Sefan Daniel himself. Watch the video interview between Thorston and Daniel where they are (oddly) laying on the floor talking about the new Leica M.

   Don’t forget you can use it just like any other Leica rangefinder if you want. I appreciate EVF and LiveView so I can more accurate frame my 40mm f/2 Rokkor-M or any other unusual focal length. We will get MUCH better ISO, better dyanmic range, and 6 more megapixels.

   Being able to use R lenses or any other lens with adapters that will be made by 3rd parties it also a bonus. I like the LED frame lines, the horizon option, the high resolution larger display, the gorilla glass (although maybe not as good as sapphire) and the design on the back especially is beautiful. It’s a nice mix of the past and the future.

   This is a MUCH more versatile camera than previous Leicas. That is a fact.

   I pre-ordered mine yesterday.

8. Leica should have made three distinct lines

   Leica M = MILC FF (affordable Leica $3k)
   Leica MM
   Leica M10 = M-E

   At $3k ability to use any lens (3rd party adapters)
   Leica’s name & simplicity
   a years head start
   droves would have flocked.

   • All Leica is doing is essentially introducing a lower priced camera so they dont lose as many sales to cameras like the x1pro. If Leica asked Fuji to make a x1pro camera for them sales of m10’s would plummit. Leica has takent he road of ‘more expensive must be better’, and are trapped on it. They cant make cheap cameras cause it will destroy their so called brand, they cant make cameras too expensive or else their gonna have lots of unsold stock left over. Seems like Leica is perpetualy stuck in the male jewlery demographic. There is no way out of Leicas slef made merry go round, unfortunately. The mistakes that they have made all those decades are shaping the tunnel they have to travel now. Leica has been dropping the ball for decades, not just now.The monochrome is just another gimmick Leica has to use to keep going, relying on it’s own heritage but never moving forward.Like a hoarder, Leica is now stuck buried inside their own home and needs outside help but is too proud or too dumb to ask for it. That’s not PC but heck, its just a camera.

     • A “gimmick” that many fine art photographers will be unbelievably happy about. In fact with more than 60 years of family association with the Leica Brand, I can only say that from our perspective we have never seen them less stuck in the past.

       • Not all fine art phtographers use Leica. As for stuck in the past, Leica decades ago was innovative, not anymore.Their last innovation was getting Minolta to make them the CL. The world has changed, almost everyone has a camera now, has seen a camera or has had a camera pointed at them, the myths of Leica being discreet is getting to be more and more a urban legend. I have seen many photos taken with Leica and like photgraphy of any kind, very very very few are great, most are not even mediocre. It’s not Leica that made the few great photographers great, it was the few great photographers that made the Leica brand famous .Leica fans have a hard time understanding it aint the camera, it’s always the person. We should give credit to the Egyptians for building the pyramids rather than the tools they used.

         • Most folks that buy Leica enjoy the fine craftsmanship and the experience of the camera, along with the fine photographs it can produce with a skilled photographer. It sounds to me like you enjoy generalizing and being just a negative person overall.

         • Ah, you and youre acussations of me. I’d laugh but it’s realy not all that funny.But speaking of generalizations, I’d like you to ask around and see how much craftsmanship is Leica made. first let’s look at the sensor of the m10, not Leica made and you can bet not Leica written or programmed. Second, the rangefinder, chances are, not made in Germany but outsourced to some other second world country or somewhere in Spain.

           Third, I give credit to where credit is due, which is the photographer. Let me ask you, do you believe it’s the camera? Do you believe in ancient aliens too? I sincerely hope that folks like yourself 400 years from now dont dig up photgraphs and say that ancient alines made them. Lets give the men who did something with their cameras some due, shall we? Do you also believe in Leica myths, cause I sure don’t…or is that another generalization to you? What a said world you live in when folks like yourself give more credit to camera than the folks who use them.

         • That is true Robo, not all fine art photographers use Leica, but I feel that more will be attracted to the brand after these much anticipated and now thankfully soon to be implemented modifications. Although the CL was a great innovation for Leica I feel that it was not as you state “their last”. I am sure that many see the M9 as very innovative and I for one love the camera. Ultimately it has always been a myth about Leica cameras being discrete. It is after all skilled photographers who make the art of unnoticed street photography a discrete experience, the fact that many chose Leica is a tremendous complement to that brand. There doesn’t appear to be much in the way of shades of grey when it comes to Leica ownership, photographers either get Leica or they don’t. Some like me love the experience while others think we are mad to spend what we do. We are all a long time dead and where we invest our ever dwindling moments of free time and how much we spend on it is very much a personal equation. In my life time Leica has been on the brink more than once, I for one am glad to see this niche camera producer not only survive but now plan to expand and prosper.

         • Innovation? When you pay another company to make a sensor for you to stick into your camera, that’s not innovation, that is what you get for not doing much for the last 5 decades. the times have moved on from Leica, even Olympus showed that you can have a small slr or small compact camera in their film pens. the art of unnnoticed street work is the skill of the photographer, not the camera. As for Leica quality, anyone who has used Zeiss lenses do not have a real need for Leica’s lenses.

           Leica truthfully does not have anything but their heritage to play up on, riding on the coattails of the few great photographers like Bresson who have used their cameras constantly is somewhat of a scam. Leica can not make enough to expand because when it comes to this kind of market, technology counts for everything. Building a reliable camera is not enough. The nikon sp , F,F2 cameras had more durability than any Leica ever made.The Canon F1 could run laps around any Leica ever made. Leica does not have the money or tech to compete in comsumr electronics, and not even of course the pro market. To make money you need to have money. Leica cant make electronics worth a dime and before the m8, Leica still used cloth shutters…yes cloth. People associate cloths with apparel and holes in them. titanium shutters where invented back when the SP was around and Leica still chooses to use cloth. i geuss it’s good for business when users have to fork out money every few years for camera repairs…hardly built like a tank as most Leica people claim their camers to be.

           I’m only pointing out Leicas massive short comings, things Leica can adress but always chooses not to. Somewhere along the history of the company , Leica decided that it doesnt have what it takes to innovate anymore, and consciuosly decided to use heritage as a cover for ” stagnation”, which is why their cameras film are still bottom loading to this day. Forget innovation, let just plow the fields with cows instead of machines like everyone is doing, cause it’s heritage, cause that’s the only thing we can market. In the end, Leica will be nothing more than male jewlery. Jewlery has no place in work, just like gold hammers have no place in construction. Leica should stick tomaking lenses and forget about the camera body business, as it stopped making cameras since the m7, if they even made that one at all.

         • One of the great things about photography is that we all get to choose what we want to shoot, for me that is Leica, Nikon and now also Fuji. Thank God for that choice, it would be very dull if we all thought the same way and wanted exactly the same things. A creative hobby is a wonderful thing to enjoy and I am lucky to have had a Father who was so passionate about photography that he trusted his young son with his M3. That’s where Leica started for me, it’s in my heart my soul my memory, I simply love the experience. Happy picture taking Robo, the joy and the passion, that’s photography in a nutshell.

         • Passion comes from the heart, not a camera, not a brand, not a hammer, not a brush, not a car…it comes from the person.

         • From the heart from the soul from life’s rich and wonderful experiences, from friends, from family and from enjoying the good and positive things that life has to offer. For all these reasons, for all the good times and wonderful memories and even the occasional good photograph; Leica will stay with me for life because it has been a small but positive constant in it. Wishing you joy in your photography Robo.

         • Actually another thought has just occurred to me. I am lucky to have friends from very diverse backgrounds and some of those are in manufacturing. They are all incredibly passionate about the products they make. They are very proud of their achievements in being inventive and creative in combining components to make something that other people will enjoy using. They see that a proportion of potential customers need or desire a product or they envision that they may and then they produce it. So passion does not just restrict itself to human interaction, it does flow over and into all the products that we use. Without the passion of those who make things there would have been no human progress through history, no invention. So, even the things around us, cars, cameras, brushes, Leica or Panasonic cameras, they all come from passion and vision. Those products are all someones passion. No camera, no photograph, no photography. Thanks to these passionate people we have choice. Without the passion of photographic manufacturers we would both still be standing at easels.

9. not that I could actually afford the new M, but I do appreciate the new found ability to use an EVF in the hot shoe and also use a flash with the additional grip. That suits my type of shooting nicely!

10. I generally hate sports analogies, but I have to say that Leica has really hit it out of the park! They are clearly listening to their critics, customers, and market influences. The M, ME, and Monochrom trio are simply wonderfully conceived. I wish I could own one of each. I did just make the plunge into the digital Leica realm by purchasing an M8. Along with my M6 I think I now have the best of “both worlds”. Of course, Leica is expensive, but simply worth every dime IMHO.

11. JJ is in my team.

12. Info I am looking for is high ISO performance. New M vs M9 vs Leica M Monochrom comparison would be useful. Much appreciation if anyone can point me to info on this.

13. I echo everyone thoughts and potential concerns regards the M. I’m seriously considering switching from my current Nikon D3 system, with lenses and all, for a Leica based system. I’m passionate about getting back to what photography is all about, you and the camera, not over the top technology and bags full of heavy gear that often gets left at home. Read so much about the unique Leica Look both film and CCD, question is will the new M be a rangefinder which produces DSLR style files and loose the Leica magic!

    Can’t honestly see the point of buying the ME in preference to say the M, or in fact the M9P which will no doubt drop in price.

14. M3: over 40 years, working well and keeping its value, if not increasing it. C503x, working well and keeping its value (slightly under m3). Both producing peace of mind to their owner. Digital crap: turning photographers into consumers, depreciating fast, doing nothing for photography except 1000 trillion pics buried in 1 billion computers (which also are digital crap).

    • now….tell us how you really feel!

    • Although I do like the M9 & X100. But I agree with the general sentiment. I have a camera bag in the closet for my Nikon SLR and Canon P&S but my wall unit contains my M3 & X100. 🙂

    • yes jj , keep spending money on prints that dont make you money. Thats because as you said the Leica m3 has function yet no function, having no form but form. a Formless Form, and functioning non function.

15. Earing the video (!), the M10 seems much more silent than the M9.
    To me it is a very good point.
    DS

16. Agree with Retow, bit disappointed that the M isn’t getting any smaller/thinner.

17. I’ve read so much about poor rangefinder calibration on M digital cameras. I’ve never had any issues with my M3 or M6 rangefinders. Can anyone explain why digital M’s seem so susceptible?

    • TerryB,

      In large part it’s due to the relative thickness of the image capture layer between film and digital. Digital is basically 0 units thick, while film emulsion has some thickness to it. Thus, on film, you have more tolerance for mis-focus. If you don’t nail it with digital it is much more obvious.

18. One positive on the M that I haven’t seen mentioned yet will be the ability to check the rangefinder is accurate. Local Leica techs should be able to calibrate much easier and quicker by refering to the live view image and then adjusting the cams for the rangefinder. Shame there isn’t an easy accessible adjuster for DIY.

    • Calibrate the lens or the RF ???
      DS

      • The RF only.

    • Sure there is an easy adjuster (at least in mt case). I bought a set of allen wrenches at Harbor Freight Tools to adjust the wheel that contacts the lens. A very very slight and light turn of the wrench was enough to get my Noctilux spot on! Cost me $5!!!!

19. I’m not sure that what little extra weight there will be with the M is much of an issue. At the end of the day the Leica glass is what it is all about and the ability to accurately focus it. For some Pro’s and serious amateurs the adoption of live view will remove the main stumbling block from their adoption of the Leica system. Leica should be commended for giving their customers a wider choice, they are after all in business to stay in business. Developing their products and spreading the attraction of their brand to a wider audience is the only way they will survive. Good luck to them!

    • It’s against the trend of smaller and lighter. Size and weight advantage was one of the reasons M cameras were used. When the M9 came out, it was the lightest FF camera in the market. I don’t know whether you ever carried a M9, plus 3 fast Leica M-lenses, say 24, 50, 90 mm for a full day. The new entry level FF Nikon or Canon with prime lenses might not be heavier (depending on which primes of course). If anything, I had hoped for a slimmed down M body build of lighter materials. I expect Fuji to already work on a FF RF-alike camera, which will have significant weight advantages over a M, especially with lenses.

      • CMOS sensor is low power. But with live view and video capability, the image processor will need to run faster to process video data. The faster it run more heat will be generated by the processor. A heat sink to keep it cool is vital for it’s operation. That may contribute to the new M’s thickness(5mm) and weight(80gram heavier).

        Steve mentioned Sony NEX7 will shut down during long period of video capturing. NEX7 body has magnesium alloy on top and front. But back and bottom is Plastic. The heat dissipation is not adequate for plastic.

      • Well retow in answer to your comment we have been lucky to have an M3 in the family since the 50’s and a family member owns an M9, so I am reasonably conversant with the Leica system and lenses. I also own a Nikon DSLR which is a good bit heavier and very bulky compared to the M system. We are all estimating the differences until we actually get our hands on the new M but for me the new M will still be a joy compared to any DSLR system. It’s horses for courses, some love DSLR’s others prefer Leica / Fuji like cameras. As for smaller and lighter trends I have to agree, it would have been nice to have a slimmed down system but this is where Leica is at this point in time and I for one think that they should be congratulated for the modifications that they have brought in. For some of us it has been a very long wait.

20. It’s time for us to send a petition to Leica for they send the M10 pakage, with lenses M and R, to Steve for him to test it.for 2 months.
    DS

21. Hello

    someone to answer me?

    bitrate of movie mode mjpeg ?
    without additional micro, only mono sound ?

    best regards

    • – Bitrates are unknown yet – the firmware etc isn’t finished yet.
      – it’s a mono mic in the body

22. Leica had left over m9’s unsold and decided to repackage them with a little bit of cosmetic changes here and there and voila, the ME. Leica obviously does not respect any of it’s customers and should stick to making lenses and leave the camera making to other companies who respect their client a little bit more.Not that Leica is doing any camera making as the sensor and electronic whizz of their cameras arent even made by them.wouldnt surprie me if most of the other parts are outsourced to Spain and other places.

    Next year or two Leica will take left over M’s and repackage them as ME 2’s. that viewfinder they got from Olympus they didnt even bother to change one thing, so it shows Leicas contempt for it’s users or Leica doesnt even bother trying anymore when it comes to repackaging things. so sad, a company known for its innovation back in the 50’s is now no more than a mens jewlery line catering to folks who are interested in anything but common sense and taking photographs. But i cant blame Leica too much as for fraudsters to exist, there has to be suckers.

23. I have read many people complaining about the perceived fall in value of their M9’s and placing the blame squarely on Leica and the ME , its been mentioned on nearly every forum discussing the new releases . I just don’t get it – if you own an M9 you own an electronic gadget which is in relatively good supply that has old technology …depreciation is a fact of life , particularly when new models are announced.

    I cannot see anyone selling their M9 to buy an ME ,it is people upgrading from an M9 to an M that will increase supply of used M9’s ( as will people switching systems altogether as alternative FF offerings are becoming more interesting ) and therefore likely soften prices further .

    In the long run I think that the ME might actually help support the used price of M9’s as given the choice which would you prefer and therefore pay more for …a second hand M9 or a second hand ME ???

24. Looks like Leica is up to its old tricks again.

25. I think Leica thought seriously about the affordable FF Leica $3k evf only (no ovf no ranger finder)
    I wonder how it would have been with the two distinct lines : Rangefinder Leica, MILC FF Leica.

    • A MILC FF Leica would have been closer in spirit to Digilux2 concept.

26. Shelling $$$ for the new Leica M surely adds up. $6950(Leica M)+ $550( EVF2)+$285(microphone adapter)+ $310 ( Leica R adapter)= $8095. I will have to wait for Steve’s review before purchasing Leica M plus accessories. I also need to know how the new CMOS sensor compares with the CCD sensor of Leica M9.

27. Would Leica be making the M-P version like the M9 later, I wonder..

28. “..this is the definitive M”.

    Have I missed a full review?

    • No, James, you haven’t. Comments for the time being have to be speculation based on the published specification and which do, indeed, point to it being definitive. However, specs need to match performance. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say.

29. Thorsten’s new video interview with Stefan Daniel mentions that there is no AA filter on the M. Strangely, all 37 minutes show everthing in reverse as in photographing yourself in a mirror. A bit confusing!
    I think Leica is on the right track with the modular approach – something for everbody. As for me, the basic camera with hopefully improved image quality will be just fine.

30. I have to admit I am conflicted by the new Leica offerings. On paper the new ‘M’ sounds like a marked improvement over the M9, and yet I’m not as giddy as I thought I’d be. I was like a kid at Christmas waiting for the Leica updates to be released from Photokina – and while Leica unquestionably stepped up to the plate with the new M, perhaps it couldn’t live up to the anticipation and hype.

    And I have to admit I feel like Leica kicked me in the ‘nads by repackaging the M9 as an ‘M-E’ and pulling the rug out from underneath the resale value of my M9 on the used market.

    I knew M9 values would drop when its predecessor was announced, but the ‘M-E’ will hurt resale value much more than any M9 owners anticipated.

    One final Photokina thought: Hasselblad … WTF???

    I was really excited about the offerings you would announce at Photokina, but a $6,500 Sony NEX7 dressed up with a carbon fiber grip? Call it whatever you want, its still a pig wearing lipstick. Looks like the ‘Lunartics’ are running the asylum.

    • Isn’t an M9 still better than an M-E?

      • From what I’ve read Leica has taken all the parts of the M9 and repackaged them into the ‘M-E’ with some inconsequential differences. Not 100% sure on any downgrades, but a brand new M-E for $5,450.00 is what I could have sold my M9 for last month (or more).

        • Wishful thinking. I’ve seen used M9s selling for less than $5k for over a month now and sold one myself for that in April. Maybe if you got lucky. M9 prices have been dropping for some time now. I’d rather have a nice used M9 than an ME anyway and I don’t think the ME did much to used M9 prices and who knows maybe it even helped them. The ME doesn’t have a frame line selector so the M9 may prove to be the more valuable choice in the log run. Now, if you paid ful price in the last two months then of cours like buying a car right before the new model is out you are going to take a hit. Funny though we dot see folks complaint about how their car loses 20% value when they drive it off the lot…

      • M9 is basically the same – with an added USB and manual frame line selector switch on the front. M9-P adds the sapphire screen.

        So “better” may be a stretch for the M9 but is probably fair for the M9-P.

        I think secondhand M9s will probably end up coming in around 500-1000 bucks less than an ME because of the risk/ uncertainty of buying secondhand vs the minor extra features. M9-Ps will probably bottom out at ME’s price to 500 bucks less?

        I think this is a bit of a reduction from current SH prices, but the M was always going to push M9 prices down anyway, and I’m not sure this leads to much of an increase in that reduction.

        Time will tell I guess.

        Glen – couldn’t agree more about the Lunar, what are they thinking! I was hoping for an xpan/mamiya 7 style camera for around 10-15k US depending on sensor size. Instead we get a Nex-7 (which is a nice camera, I admit) in an exotic fat suit. It’s bizarre. Will be interesting to see where this all leads… but to me currently it’s as sad as the iPhone extender lenses with Rollei branding. Especially at a time when Zeiss is resurgent it is such a shame to see th e legacy pf the V series so roundly trashed!

    • Ouch for your nads. I put a deposit on a M9-P last week and I’m not sure if I should continue with the purchase or move to a M-E, I can’t say I like the M-E cosmetically.

      • They screwed up the cosmetics to keep people excited about the M9 and M9P. If the ME would look like the M9, the M9 would just drop like a lead balloon. I bet in a year, when the dust has settled, they will revamp the ME and do an all black, and all silver version. Then they will run a clear traditional line and the modern M line. Kind of what they do with M7 and MP. Right now it bugs me that one is overly modern and the other is just in strange colors and old. D!RK

31. Looks like a very interesting, and very different beast. While I am interested, I think I will wait out being an “early adopter” this time, at least until I read Steve’s personal review and see some test images. Also, thinking about getting a little RX100 to put in my bag alonside my M9 for those times when “M” type features are needed.

32. Steve refers to “rich color and dynamic range”, any idea or info about how many EVs of dynamic range will it offer?

33. What changes from M to M-E?

34. Sounds interesting….the New M seems a lot more fiddly with a lot more features…I am not sure whether this will add to or detract from the overall RF aesthetic. I commend Leica for trying to catch up to its competitors on a variety of fronts, but I am worried the extra bells, knobs, and grips may be a bit distracting. The camera is also substantially heavier by 1/4 lbs (100 g) and the multifunction grip will likely provide more heft. We start talking about DSLR heft when these numbers get batted about. The increase in size, increase in buttonage, etc, make the camera’s old accessories (i.e. your old half cases and thumbs ups) yesterday’s stuff….Also, there are reports, like on Thorsten’s site, that the new CMOS sensor doesn’t have an AA filter, but I haven’t seen anything definitive from Leica about this. The camera would be very appealing if it can maintain the base imaging characteristics of its lenses as well as CCD sensors found in the M9, M8, MM, and M-E, but if it loses some of this at the expense of high ISO performance, I am worried.

    Overall, it seems like this is a camera that will appeal to many photographers interested in Leica, and with Live view, focus peaking and what not, it may make certain lenses (focus shifty or superfast lenses) easier to nail focus with, at the loss of some of the RF feel of the camera…i.e. fiddling with buttons and knobs/dials, and an EVF (lower res than the current 2.4 MP state of the art??!)..it may slow down photographers such as myself, unless we use the camera as we have used prior M’s…with optical VF and RF style focussing…

    • You are correct Ash. But, you don’t have to add all “bells and stuff” like evf and grip and… You can use it just like M9 or any other old M… But if you want more features, it requires more “bulk”. Easy math! I will be getting new M next (late) spring once the camera is out for few months. I got tricked by Leica once being a “beta tester” for M8 and all the tragedy that occurred at the beginning… I won’t do it again, as much as it is tempting holding a brand new rangefinder in my little hands…

      • so steve your pre order is in but tthey will only ship for u next april?

        • I get mine same as anyone else, through a dealer. Same as always. I do not order from Leica just like I did not order my Sony RX1 from Sony, but Amazon.

          • I bet it will take a while before we all will hold one in our hands. Steve, I saw your boat yesterday in Boston. I ran buy on my morning run but didn’t see a bunch a Leica users. Perfect weather you had. 😉 BTW Have they increased the size of the red dot on the M? Did people complain about the M9 being too discreet? Looks like we will need wider tape. D!RK

      • Ergonomics is not the forte of the digital Ms and with 100 g extra weight the grip might be a must have, adding even more bulk and weight. The weight advantage to FF DSLRs is pretty much gone and with accessories added it will be as bulky as FF DSLRs or mirrorrless FF with primes.

    • Regarding the AA filter. On Thorsten’s site, in the interview with Stefan Daniel, Stefan says in response to Leica not making mention of the AA filter, that ‘we don’t need to mention what is not there’ (he chuckles) – I’m paraphrasing, but his words are good enough for me.

    • I totally shared this sentiment but I’ve reached the conclusion that I don’t have to use these features if they begin to annoy me and get in the way….(I suspect they might). It’s worth adding though that there will no doubt be times when I would want or need them. I initially hated the idea of “Live View” but its growing on me a little, likewise focus peaking.

      We’re a fickle lot, we moan at a lack of features and we moan when we get them…….

      It was good to hear a definitive answer from Stefan Daniel on the AA filter but at the same time a little worrying to hear comments like “more testing is required” and what also appeared to be a willingness to make further alterations to the camera before release.

      We need to see some files from the M, lots of them…

      Monochrom on order, may change that to the M. Not sure yet.

    • Everyone who complains of increased buttonage, knobs, etc. on the body should count up the number of buttons, wheels and levers on the new M vs. the M9.

      By my count, the new M adds 2 new buttons and 1 new wheel, but subtracts 3 buttons and 1 frame preview lever. It subtracts 3 buttons by combining them into 1 wheel around the Info button. The net result is about the same.

    • Well, Ashwin, the new M is 680 g (23.9 oz) and my M7 with film and batteries is 631 g (22.2 oz) … I’m just not seeing an ounce and change as a difference in the actual using of the camera or that it’s somehow a departure from the Leica rangefinder experience. These are weights that are all in the very same neighborhood. When people say DSLR, and compare Leicas to DSLRs, I know they’re not talking about pro-DSLRs like the D3 or even the D700 and up cameras. The difference in weight between a D3 with a 24-70 2.8 Nikkor monstrosity and a Leica rangefinder down in the sub-700 gram range…lol. That’s a different shooting experience. A little tiny bit heavier. I little tiny bit fatter. I think I’ll be fine with my M when it comes. I’m anticipating great image making with this camera and I’ve pre-ordered a black one already. I’ve been waiting for this day since I sold my M9, a camera and a sensor I have never regretted selling for an instant. Especially since I have an M7 and an M6 TTL and a fridge full of color film. I love shooting Leica rangefinders. I would have loved my M9 had it just had a different sensor and better color… and NOW… voila! Kudos and thanks to Leica.

      • Ashwin. I am with you. Whenever I pick up a Leica M6 non TTL, I get grounded on what made this camera such a great tool. I never tried the M3 but I guess it is similar. Just small, solid, effortless, and simple. I never left it home. The new M may just be a bit heavier and the size increase is hopefully just because of the dial poking out. It may be fine and I may avoid adding the extras to not bring it up to DSLR size, which would make me question it every time if I want to lug this thing around. It is a fine line to keep that simplicity while adding new features. The extra dials, the extra buttons, etc may not be a big departure but it is starting to make me feel uncomfortable. All this may be super helpful and easy to use but just looking at it makes me wish they would have simplified the product. even more. I think the dial on the right side is turning me off. 😉 I like the simplicity of the ME, never used the USB and rarely used the frameline lever, but the body colors are not as desirable to as as the full black or silver. I think they created this slightly busier look on purpose to protect the value of the M9. What would be my ideal? The ME layout in black with the bigger screen and the new sensor. D!RK

      • i think ashwin is comparing the M to the M8 and M9 (not to previous film Ms). there is a significant weight addition to the M in this regard. for me, this is a big negative, though, in truth, the M’s video and live view and such do not interest me at all. for now, i’ll stick with my m8 and m6 … i could sell those to pick up an ME or i could wait for the next Leica offering …

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